Div 2A 2012

[cruie]

... My opinion is that some of the big boys in the lower Divs enjoy shooting goldfish in barrels but there is no longevity in that. New teams will struggle to retain players if they are thumped etc...

This is an important point. It is very tough, for many clubs, to put out a team that can compete in Div4 and (to a bit less of an extent) Div3.

Our D4 is doing much better than our D3 team of last season (this is the first year we have run 4 teams), but even so it is a case of damage-limitation, most weeks, and then a real effort to win the couple of games that are against similar standard opposition.

I think it is a case of too few teams/clubs and I'm not sure what can be done unless/until the CSL is a much larger competition?

If the bigger clubs are able - and allowed - to put out 4+ teams that are capable of winning D1A, D1B, D3 and D4 then many of the smaller clubs are going to find it difficult to retain players and their additional teams.



* No offense intended to any club, large or small.

[LGA]

Understand no offence is taken......

But what can bigger clubs do?

They are picking their 31st to 45th best player each week just like other 'smaller' clubs. So how is that unfair?

Might be missing something am I?

[cruie]

Understand no offence is taken......

But what can bigger clubs do?

They are picking their 31st to 45th best player each week just like other 'smaller' clubs. So how is that unfair?

Might be missing something am I?

I didn't say - and I don't think Cheesy did either? - that its unfair. Unfair implies someone is doing something "wrong". I've said it's difficult.

And it is difficult to keep players turning up when they get their back-side handed to them, week-after-week. The occasional thumping is OK, but if it is happening most weeks many players will say thanks-but-no-thanks. There's no fun in getting battered.

Like I said, I don't think there is much that can be done ... It's the size of the whole competition that causes the problem, I think ... But it is an issue if the CSL wants 4 strong competitive divisions with most clubs entering 4 teams.

The core of our D4 side (and was our D3 side last year) was the team that played in the "social" Div6/7 of the SAASL, a few years ago. And I think the "CSL problem" could be summed up by saying that there is no "social" division in the CSL.


(And again, no offense intended to the big and/or the small)

[wojindows]

The only solution to that (which I think has been suggested) would be: promotion/relegation between Div 3/4 and Div 2. So with the current standings for example, Mercedes Div3/4 teams get put in Div 2, and PAC drop to 3/4.

So strong teams don't stay in the same div...

[Squeezy Cheesey Peas]

Thats exactly the best and possibly the only way to sort it!!
LGA - Not all do choose players 41 - 55... Pembroke have their 5th team in 2B for instance and their Div 4 team is mch better as we have experienced having played both!!
Their is no offence meant to any of the clubs as the reality is you are at liberty to choose who you want in each team and its no one elses business who plays in which squad....
My point, shared by CRUIE is that it if we want to maintain and grow the league, we have to ensure a good and fair structure that keeps the lower ability teams in the mix. SOmeone has to finish last..... but to know that you will be crushed each season by the same teams makes it hard to maintain the enthusiasm of some players... If they are not up for it, I'm happy they move on but the new clubs need a small amount of player continuity to assist their growth otherwise its one step forward and one back. I can't beleive the Mercedes and Pembrokes of Div 3 and 4 enjoy smashing people 12-0 as there is nothing clever in that. Make Div 3 and 4 a promotion /relegation league and it will even itself out naturally. There will still be a team at the bottom of the pile and it wil probably still be us!!

[Ross30]

Promotion and relegation between all the divisions would have some plus points, but where does it end? Mercedes could have 3 teams in division 1A in 3 years' time, they are that strong.

I think having multiple teams from one club in a division should be avoided where possible. I play for Pembroke and it was no fun having 2 teams in the same division in 2010 and 2011.

No system is perfect, but at least this year in division 3 all teams are clubs' 3rd teams. You cannot get much fairer than that. Division 4 consists of a mixture of 3rd teams and 4th teams, with several 4th teams dominating at the top of the table while the more newly established 3rd and 4th teams find their feet.

This year divsion 2B would appear to be considerably weaker than divsion 3 and, in some cases, divsion 4. Pembroke's 5th team was near the bottom of division 4 in the past 2 seasons and is currently much more competitive in division 2B. This presents an odd situation for the likes of Westminster, Immanuel and Mt Barker, whose division 2B teams could be playing weaker opponents than their division 3 or 4 teams in certain weeks. From this perspective, mixing up divisions 2B, 3 and 4 would be worthwhile.

However, clubs must realise that if we did mix up the lower divsions more via promotion and relegation, one downside would be that teams from the same club would potentially have far less games at the same venue as one another. Would a club in divsion 2A with two teams be happy if it's B team was in divsion 4 and played very few matches a season at the same venue as their A team? In the past, several clubs have stated that this issue would be a deal-breaker for them. Clubs want their teams kept together.

There could also be the issue of there being 2 or more teams from several clubs in one divsion, then 2 teams from several other clubs in another division. That would not be much fun either. We'd get sick of each other pretty quick.

From Pembroke's point of view, it's not a case of enjoying smashing weaker teams in the lower divisions. We were getting smashed ourselves only 3 or 4 years ago (when the forum wasn't around to make mention of it) in the lower grades and it wasn't fun. But we hung in there, not many guys left and we've got a lot more depth now. The clubs who have recently grown to 3 or 4 teams need to aspire to do that too, and some of them already are. For example, Uni SA and Pulteney in divsion 4 have improved a lot since last season.

The person who said there's no social division in the CSL is right. If that is something that clubs would like to change then please raise it at a future CSL delegates meeting (next one is likely to be on Mon 9 July). But even in a social division, one team has to come top and one team has to come bottom. Without some competitive element, people may as well just go have a kick around in the park.

[Squeezy Cheesey Peas]

Its never going to be easy regardless.
The CSL has expanded over the years and is a great league to play in I reckon. Further growth although not required, will provide a strong league that both retains and attracts clubs in the future, whilst allwing the system to mature and normalise the spread of ability within each league.
The idea of a social or an over 35's league within the CSL is interesting.... Our club has already discussed this at length as a mechanism of giving our D grade players a more stimlating environment to play in. The reality is we will need to recruit to compete in the current lower grades but the current D grade players will still be looking for a game / format to compete in. They have been very loyal to the club and the club will repay that by roviding them with a league to play in etc. The only option the guys are discussing is to create a new club that plays social in the SAASL... That is a bad thing for the club as it will divide the playing group with no movement between BUT the desire to play at a level that gives them a chance is great amongst the players! The end result will be one of three:
1. We will soldier on with a flogging each week (clubs prefeered option but we will lose a lot of players this year)
2. Because of player loss, we will run less teams ( not good for club finances or for the league)
3. Start an additional team for social / over 35's and recruit to replace them..

I agree that that good teams evolve over time and I am fully focuused onthat but its harder to bring all the players along.. The joys of soccer !
Is there nay other interst out there for a social or Over 35's league within the CSL or is it a folly???

[buzzy]

Fascinating discussion here!

I have been impressed in the last two season how the promotion/relegation has finally taken shape - I used to find it really annoying that promotion/relegation was basically meaningless as the instability of clubs/teams from year to year would determine who played where the following season. Everything is coming together really well particularly this year and I believe this is mainly due to the fact no new clubs were admitted allowing for a period of consolidation.

In terms of the set up of divisions the league has got it as close to perfect as possible this year. I just tried to come up with a system for Division 1-6 with promotion/relegation and couldn't think of an option that's better than what we currently have. I think this will always be problematic due to the amateur nature until we have a perfect world with an even number of clubs with an equal amount of teams (i.e. NEVER!)

In the end you can think about this topic until you're blue in the face! From our club's point of view we have had close to 80 players enjoying their football week in week out which I think is sensational.

[wojindows]

I think having multiple teams from one club in a division should be avoided where possible. I play for Pembroke and it was no fun having 2 teams in the same division in 2010 and 2011.
...
However, clubs must realise that if we did mix up the lower divsions more via promotion and relegation, one downside would be that teams from the same club would potentially have far less games at the same venue as one another.

I (we) was only suggesting promotion/relegation between Div2 A&B and Div 3&4. Basically Div 4 would act as a reserve league for those with teams in both Div3 and 4. So it wouldn't impact a club's A and B sides playing together (for instance).

And I'd foresee a clause that would disallow a club having multiple teams in the same div. So yes, you'd get the same problem if say, Mercedes C's won Div 2A (but I suggest this would be highly unlikely).

Again, not perfect, but just a possibility. As always there are pros and cons.

And I agree with Buzz that it has been great to see real promotion/relegation in the last couple of years.

[Squeezy Cheesey Peas]

Also ggo to se some activity and debate on the forum!!